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  1. #1

    $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    PokerStars Game #53014932387: Tournament #340010696, $2.50+$0.25 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2010/11/21 5:25:02 IST [2010/11/20 18:55:02 ET]
    Table '340010696 309' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: Cy-Dam (13617 in chips)
    Seat 2: TheMultis (5612 in chips)
    Seat 3: Drag&Fenix (11005 in chips)
    Seat 4: matty887 (3082 in chips)
    Seat 5: Hero (8979 in chips)
    Seat 6: mimijordan (15271 in chips)
    Seat 7: harbinger121 (701 in chips)
    Seat 8: Schaafxy (23245 in chips)
    Seat 9: AKrAsAtA (27316 in chips)
    Cy-Dam: posts the ante 25
    TheMultis: posts the ante 25
    Drag&Fenix: posts the ante 25
    matty887: posts the ante 25
    Hero: posts the ante 25
    mimijordan: posts the ante 25
    harbinger121: posts the ante 25
    Schaafxy: posts the ante 25
    AKrAsAtA: posts the ante 25
    Cy-Dam: posts small blind 150
    TheMultis: posts big blind 300
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Hero [Ks Js]
    Drag&Fenix: raises 700 to 1000
    matty887: folds
    Hero: calls 1000
    mimijordan: folds
    harbinger121: folds
    Schaafxy: folds
    AKrAsAtA: folds
    Cy-Dam: calls 850
    TheMultis: folds
    *** FLOP *** [3c 4c Td]
    Cy-Dam: checks
    Drag&Fenix: bets 3300
    Hero: raises 4654 to 7954 and is all-in
    Cy-Dam: folds
    Drag&Fenix: calls 4654
    *** TURN *** [3c 4c Td] [5c]
    *** RIVER *** [3c 4c Td 5c] [4d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Drag&Fenix: shows [Qc Qs] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
    Hero: shows [Ks Js] (a pair of Fours)
    Drag&Fenix collected 19433 from pot
    Hero finished the tournament in 1949th place

    1100 Places were paid. The build up to this hand is the fact that i have cashed the last 3 $2.5 MMT on PS but i just make it to the cash.Decided to be aggressive this time to get to the final table.

    I was putting drag on top 30% wondering if i should have shoved pre flop or folded

  2. #2

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Drag&Fenix UTG player has a big stack. (I assume he got that stack through solid play at that level)

    He raises preflop to approx 3.3 BB and given the size of the raise from UTG, I would have put his hand as AA, KK QQ JJ AK suited KQ suited very much doubt he is risking being re-raised with a hand he cannot like calling with.

    a) You will be committing over 10% of your stack to SEE A FLOP with KJ and against a range of hands you know you may well be already dominated and crushed.

    b) You know that you have 6 players to act behind you and if they re-raise you can only fold (please if you do call a re-raise in this spot then you are simply GAMBLING and hoping to get lucky - PERIOD).

    c) That 10% will see you through approx 2 orbits of the table to pick a better spot preferably from position.

    d) That 1,000 chips in a better spot can become 2,000 or 3,000 or 4,000

    From "UTG+2" the only sensible option with your stack size is to FOLD (I would not condemn an ALLIN gamble to double up or provoke a fold, but I certainly would not recommend it as you can wait for better spots with that stack size.








    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  3. #3

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Mumbai M i know that i was behind and needed to catch a card or 2.

    a) Assuming big stacks are build through solid play is wrong. People and good players will try and steal other than playing well to build a stack.

    b) This guy was constantly raising 3XBB as any big stack will do.

    C) Big stacks play a lot looser when they are in the money to win the tourney.

    D) Please calculate price pool equity and tell me if the gamble (I did gamble) was correct or not.

  4. #4

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Quote Originally Posted by saby
    Mumbai M i know that i was behind and needed to catch a card or 2.

    a) Assuming big stacks are build through solid play is wrong. People and good players will try and steal other than playing well to build a stack.

    b) This guy was constantly raising 3XBB as any big stack will do.

    C) Big stacks play a lot looser when they are in the money to win the tourney.

    D) Please calculate price pool equity and tell me if the gamble (I did gamble) was correct or not.
    Sorry I don't make those sort of calculations and certainly don't believe it would justify the play even if the odds say it is correct, it would justify any two cards shoving in that spot.

    All I know is that you could have waited for a better spot to take any gamble and still make the final table. I folded better to make the money in the poker-guru's freeroll on VC. I folded hands that normally I would play simply because it is the correct strategy at that particular time given the relative stack sizes.

    Personally I'd stick to what suits your style and works .. picking a spot to gamble is difficult, but it is better from late positions where you have more information .. i.e numerous "limpers" and if someone has limped with AA KK QQ or AK etc then fine .. you have been trapped ... but a shove from late position may well see you take down the pot uncontested .. and build your stack without risk .. your next hand hand may have been "cowboys" ..

    IMHO, I don't feel that if the odds justify the shove that it makes the play "correct" ..






    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  5. #5

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    if i was in your possition i should hav just call the pre-flop bet and wntd 2 check the flop....bt in most casses i dnt call a high raise with KJ.....cs if i find a king in flop and he got AK my kj is nt good there.....its feel like a trap 2 me.....it means in yr situation i will fold with my KJ..or if i will call 2 to check the folp,i will just check in after the flop.....ROY

  6. #6

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Flatting pre is fine, u have 30bbs to start the hand and are investing only 1/9th of ur stack to see the flop. Your hand plays good in position and there are lot of good flops for ur hand, for u to play it aggressively post flop. This particular flop of 2c 4c Td is not a good flop for KJss at all and I would just fold when the original aggressor leeds strongly into two people. In general when you have more than 25bbs u hv plenty of time to look for a good spot to get your money in good and there is no need to gamble by reshoving marginal hands.

  7. #7

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Quote Originally Posted by intervention
    Flatting pre is fine, u have 30bbs to start the hand and are investing only 1/9th of ur stack to see the flop. Your hand plays good in position and there are lot of good flops for ur hand, for u to play it aggressively post flop. This particular flop of 2c 4c Td is not a good flop for KJss at all and I would just fold when the original aggressor leeds strongly into two people. In general when you have more than 25bbs u hv plenty of time to look for a good spot to get your money in good and there is no need to gamble by reshoving marginal hands.
    He doesn't have position preflop .. he is UTG +2 preflop with 6 others to act, so he has no idea whether or not he will even get to see the flop for 1/9th of his stack or whether he will be in position. He is LUCKY to have position after the flop and can FOLD to any bet when he misses or readjust if he hits. But even if he hits his J or K he is still far from being in a good position when the preflop raiser continues to fire (and for 50% of his remaining stack it is a massive tell)

    therefore calling the raise preflop with KJ is horrible unless you are in the CO or on the Button with additional callers and the pot is juicy .. but UTG+2 is NOT IN POSITION and I certainly do not recommend a flat call as it is just dead money for anyone in late position waking up with a top ten hand.

    (Note sorry edited this as I did not realise that other caller was SB)
    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  8. #8

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    ok so he has position on the original raiser and not the whole table. Flatting KJ is not ideal but KJss is lot different. There are always reverse implied odds with KJ, JQ and TJ types of hands, where even when u flop top pair u end up loosing money to hands with better kicker (like J high flops to AJ and K high flops to KQ and AK), however suited hands play much better postflop and KJss is relatively decent hand and its FINE flatting even 30bbs effective as you can happily get it in on a lot of flops, where u hv flush draw with overs, pair str8 draws etc.

  9. #9

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Quote Originally Posted by intervention
    ok so he has position on the original raiser and not the whole table
    That is reason for folding KJ in that spot; rather than calling (I am not arguing against any other logic or your style of play - You are undoubtedly talented as your RESULTS speak for themselves)

    I am simply saying that it is BAD CALL and PLAY as you are majorly out of position; when you make the call you have to factor in 6 other players still to act and you have NO INFORMATION on their HANDS or whether or not they will RE-RAISE with a monster hand or attempt a SQUEEZE play ...

    IGNORING THAT

    What happened to him post flop is entirely predictable when

    a) He missed making a "flush draw" (which is an 8/1 shot) and "straight draw"
    b) He missed completely even failing to hit a J or K; Even if he hits either it leaves him him a tricky decision because "given the strength of and position of the preflop raise" he is likely to be dominated (what is the normal/standard opening range of someone UTG raising 3.5 BB)
    c) Losing tourney chips is different from losing chips in a cash game where you simply reload

    The analysis of how it plays post flop if you hit is redundant - HE SHOULD NOT HAVE CALLED POST FLOP

    P.S I am not saying that I am not prone to making this mistake; I just realise that it is a mistake and why I would not and should not make this play from UTG+2, assuming that nobody raises again prior to the "say for arguments sake" the CO or the BTN .. then flatting there would be fine .. BUT NOT UTG +2

    But then again should we be "tapping the tank" .. ??


    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

  10. #10

    Re: $2.5 12K G on PS Should i have shoved pre flop

    Quote Originally Posted by saby
    Mumbai M i know that i was behind and needed to catch a card or 2.

    a) Assuming big stacks are build through solid play is wrong. People and good players will try and steal other than playing well to build a stack.

    b) This guy was constantly raising 3XBB as any big stack will do.

    C) Big stacks play a lot looser when they are in the money to win the tourney.

    D) Please calculate price pool equity and tell me if the gamble (I did gamble) was correct or not.

    Mumbai M I know that i was behind and needed to catch a card or 2.

    FOLD

    a) Assuming big stacks are build through solid play is wrong. People and good players will try and steal other than playing well to build a stack.

    I have no knowledge of his other plays involving 3xBB raises, the position of these raises, his cards/range when going to showdown BUT I am certain he is not raising 3.5 BB from UTG without something that KJ is dominated

    I am certainly not going to play back at him with KJ from OOP with 6 OTHERS to ACT

    b) This guy was constantly raising 3XBB as any big stack will do.

    6 OTHERS TO ACT "after you" - ring any bells?

    C) Big stacks play a lot looser when they are in the money to win the tourney.

    This is only ONE factor is your PRE-FLOP decision-making process - Do you just ignore the rest of the factors involved in the decision (6 OTHERS TO ACT "after you" - ring any bells?) or are you happy for everyone to say WELL DONE your preflop actions were correct and if the POST flop shove is justified by a calculation of odds - then hey .. you did the right thing?


    D) Please calculate price pool equity and tell me if the gamble (I did gamble) was correct or not.


    Your gamble was flawed the minute you called the UTG from out of position with 6 OTHERS to ACT

    Note: I AM GUILTY AS CHARGED of making the same play on numerous occasions - But I recognise it is wrong - Also if you just shoved there with only 5 - 10 BB left I would agree with that line of play as a "GAMBLE" but with your stack, making the final table is still a reality without you having to play this particular hand from UTG +2

    P.S I am done tapping the tank, so I agree to disagree
    "When torrential water tosses boulders, it is because of momentum. When the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing. Thus, the momentum of one skilled in war is overwhelming, and his attack precisely regulated".

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